by Laura Noriega-Martin Vienna, Austria. 23th June 2001
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LNM: Sir, I have prepared some questions, obviously knowing that the words are the mind, in the mind. We will see. I think what is important is not that this is a question for myself, and an answer from you, as that is a kind of a tangle. But we will see that it will create something that, it will be this time, a possibility to share. I hope in the meanwhile that it will be creating tonight… I also know that it is a word, to ‘know’ each other.
VS: Absolutely, but I am sure you are aware that a dialogue is not possible. Only a monologue is possible. But if you rejoice at what is being spoken, then you at least come near the dialogue. A dialogue has no use. Nobody can understand another mind. Definitely a mind cannot understand a no-mind. We all talk to ourselves, is it not? We only want to hear ourselves. You are here for a monologue. We are leading the life of a monologue. Isn’t it?
LNM: Yes.
VS: But the illusion is such that we think a dialogue is possible, so let that possibility continue.
LNM: Let us see, in many cases it came to a point, which is in my first question, which says, a kind of no question that dies. I was here yesterday, sorry I was late, I was hearing your talk, and the first thing you said was “I am here” and you spoke about “you”. I want you to tell me, who is this “you” for you? When you say “you”, are you relating to the mind or are you relating to the beyond?
VS: When I say “you” to others, I only indicate the mind. Some words I have to use which you normally use in the language. There are no other words. If I use no words, then I will simply keep quiet.
LNM: Yes sir, that is very correct. I also heard, which I liked very much yesterday, when you said “one has to be honest to oneself in relation to the mind. Watch the mind and be honest to what is going on!”
VS: A mind says one thing, but if you look very deeply, the intention is something quite contrary to it. So easily we say, “Oh, it is nice to see you, it is so nice of you to come”, but the mind is saying, “When are you going? Why did you come?”
LNM: Yes.
VS: “You ruined my day! I wanted to go shopping.” But you put on a face to say, “Oh it is so kind of you to come.” Always look for the inner real intention of the mind, which is totally different. We are all acting.
LNM: Do you think that this illusion is the fight against the mind or should we leave it alone as long as you are this attachment? The real “you” is the attachment!
VS: If you fight with the mind, you are still fighting with the mind. You have got to fight the mind with the mind. How can you fight with the mind?
LNM: So, it’s about dis-attachment?
VS: It is a question of watching the mind fight with itself.
LNM: When you say watching the mind, who is watching?
VS: Ahhhh! You see, that is the KNOWER. Now, you see, you say so many things. You say I am tired, I am angry. Somebody says it, and there is somebody inside who knows it that you are sad, knows that you are angry. Angry and sad are words attached to the ego. The ego simply says it. When the ego is saying it, the knower is not there. The knower is in the back. He knows you are sad, He knows you are there. There is a knower there. The fourth.
LNM: This knower is the witness?
VS: Exactly. There is knowledge, there is knowing, and there is a KNOWER who knows this knowledge. And there is somebody who knows all three things. He is the REAL guy.
LNM: Oh! “You” personalized?
VS: Exactly, Witness is the one who knows all these three things. The knowledge. The observed, the observing and the observer!
LNM: You sound like Krishnamurthy.
VS: Whatever it is, it is the truth. Not Krishnamurthy!
LNM: Yes good answer.
VS: It is not because Krishnamurthy said so. It is because it is so.
LNM: Yes. It is just that you remind me of Krishnamurthy. Okay, so the witness is ‘reality’ itself? Or not yet?
VS: You will come to know whatever it is, the ‘Reality’, the moment you have done away with what you think is real. First and primary mistake; people want to know about the unknown through the known. Get the known out of the way, then everything will fit in the right perspective, otherwise people will be getting spiritually conditioned! That is what is happening now. Firstly, understand that life is simply flowing or life is simply filled with bliss with no room for interpretation and interpretation is filled with duality, with no room for life. That is final. Life is flowing and parallel to it a mind interprets. Have this understanding, then you will flow with life and interpretations will be going on in the back. Commentary! A superimposed commentary! And the commentary is not life. Life is flowing and existence has simply put on an interpretation.
LNM: That is true. In my experience it is possible to be the witness for some time, and to realize that the mind is in the way to practice this kind of alertness. But it is not permanent!
VS: You are very correct. Alertness comes and goes. Awareness comes and goes. You follow me? I am happy that you are aware that at times you are unaware…
LNM: Yes!
VS: That awareness of the unawareness is a quantum leap for you, because slowly and steadily that unawareness period will become aware. So your waking state is totally filled with that awareness of life, which is flowing. You will also be aware of the interpretation going on also, but will not at all be bothered. You follow me? And, once that awareness of interpretation keeps on going, that interpretation stops, because you are aware but not identified, and not giving any attention. The moment you do not give attention to the mind, mind will slow down. If you hold hands with the mind, you will run along with it. Then it will flow. It will go on chatting, chatting and chatting.
LNM: So, is that why you are identified with yourself? You identify yourself with your body, with your mind, which becomes real?
VS: The moment you are identified with the body, you are the body. The moment you are identified with the mind, where normally everybody is, then you become the mind! Whatever it says you think it to be true! And you are lying. Anybody can say anything; I say you are right because you are listening to your mind. And whatever your mind says it is right to you. You are right! How can I say you are wrong! I cannot say that, because if I say you are wrong, the same ego is saying I am wrong too…
LNM: Yes
VS: For, everyone who is in the mind, and whatever they say is right because that is what is being said for them by existence. Exactly. And whatever gets said, mind you, the mind thinks it is right because that is how life has interpreted life for your mind.
LNM: Yes I can follow that. I read your papers and you talk about Advaita. I know a little bit about Advaita. I am quite interested in Advaita. Advaita is Non-Duality. I would like to talk about non-duality. It does not make lot of sense to me, excuse me, but I want to make the point that obviously when you say that there is no duality…
VS: THERE IS DUALITY!
LNM: Yes, there is duality and this is the Illusion. Is this correct?
VS: Illusion means what? Why do they say it is an illusion?
LNM: I think to me it is an illusion. I don’t know why all the people say it is an illusion.
VS: But why do “you” say it is an illusion?
LNM: I say it is an illusion because it is not permanent. It is not real.
VS: Why do you say it is not REAL?
LNM: Because it changes, and in real life that is not how it is.
VS: Why? Be very certain! You are right it is an illusion! But why do you say it is an illusion? Firstly, it is not real you said, correct! You said it is not real because it keeps changing, very true! That also is right! Another thing, why? Keep on going deep, deep, deep till you hit the point. Whatever you have said, I appreciate it; you seem to have understood life! Great! Now go deeper. It is because your relationships, your interpretations are not present with you when you are in sleep. It is absent then. All your questions about life, all the interpretations about life, all that you see about life is not there, but you are ALIVE. Very much alive! You don’t even think of the bed in which you are sleeping. You are alive, not dead. Mind is absent. If it was real, it should be present there too. Nothing is present there. Just you are! Alive! That aliveness you are! Here too! And that aliveness, you are here too with no interpretations. You have come home. There in the bed you were horizontal, and your eyes were closed. Here you are sitting and your eyes are open. But you are in the same state as you were in your sleep…
LNM: But there are different states of Consciousness!
VS: Consciousness is Consciousness. Consciousness can open its eyes. Consciousness can close its eyes.
LNM: That is true, what I mean by different states of Consciousness; maybe it is sleeping, may be it is aware that it is night.
VS: You say you sleep, but you have not tasted sleep? Have you?
LNM: Tasted?
VS: Tasted sleep! Have you experienced sleep to say it is sleep? You can eat an apple and say it is an apple because you have tasted it. Have you experienced sleep? So, as long as you have not experienced sleep, you should never say it.
LNM: I think that is what they say; it is sleep. But coming back to why I think this is an illusion. I think it is an illusion because it is a sleeping state.
VS: Pardon.
LNM: I think this is a sleeping state!
VS: Which one?
LNM: Both. When you are sleeping and when you are in this life, here, and you are attached to your mind and the body. This is kind of, you can say - it is metaphoric to sleeping!
VS: Why do you say it is a sleep! You must be very certain. If this is sleep, that means you are dreaming here too. Isn’t it?
LNM: True, possibly true!
VS: Why do you say so?
LNM: Because when you see the cot….
VS: Wait; let me ask you one thing, how do you know your sleeping state was a dream? It is because you woke up from that state…
LNM: It is because you know something else; that you must be somewhere else.
VS: Right, so if this is a dream, you know this is a dream only when you wake up from this dream, and not otherwise…
LNM: Yes, dream is not here.
VS: No! Okay, doesn’t matter, what is your second question.
LNM: Yes what I mean is…
VS: Listen to me.
LNM: Okay.
VS: You said “no”. You can only know if this dream is over-you know that dream was in the sleep; you woke up and the dream was gone-this dream also should go. They say wake up, and this dream also will go. Once when you wake up, then only you will know the waking state was also a dream….
LNM: That is true, but how can the mind be in the same dream again and again, tell me?
VS: You are not listening!
LNM: I am not listening?
VS: Yes, you are in a monologue; you are just listening to your “no”. You are not catching what is being said. It is not completed as yet!
LNM: Then I am awfully sorry.
VS: You are very kind. When we wake up from the dream into this waking state, we say we have woken up from the dream. And we also say this is a dream eventually. When you see a car in your dream it was there in your room. You were in your room. You were horizontal in the bed. Listen! For, you are going to your mind. You are calculating, you are manipulating! You are looking into your knowledge! You are not listening to what is being said! You are hearing your mind now! So listen. When you are sleeping in the bed, horizontal, no lights, your eyes are closed, but you dream of a car exactly like you see in the waking state. You saw the car, but the car was not in the room at all. You are there in the room. You have seen the car. So, the car was absent. It is a dream. You woke up and said Ah! It was a dream. I have woken up and it is false! So, that was the dream state! You follow me? If this is a dream state too, okay? Then the car, which you now see here, should not be there when you wake up.
LNM: Okay.
VS: And you said, you know, but is the car not there?
LNM: Well…
VS: Listen, do you understand what I am trying to say? It is easy to repeat sentences. It is easy to repeat what you have learned from the book. What is said? “Oh, it is a dream, I know.” “Waking state is a dream, I know.” “That is a dream.” Even a child will read it and a child will say that.
LNM: I don’t say it because of that!
VS: How do you know that, tell me?
LNM: Now since I have listened to you, I know, but it is difficult to put it in words. What I was saying is, when we sit in that chair in the corner and you are not in the sleeping state first thing right, and you are not dreaming, but you are here in this situation….
VS: Sitting and sleeping?
LNM: And you have all these material things around and will not go just because you are not here. And it could be real even covered or as you see. It doesn’t matter and if you cover all these things you open your eyes and think they are real and you can touch them and so say this is real and you can also close your eyes, and then try something else, but here is more real. And so it doesn’t matter if you open your eyes see a table or you don’t see a car or you see a table.
VS: So, when you open your eyes you see a table?
LNM: I see different things.
VS: What do you mean?
LNM: Depends on where you are, wherever the witness is.
VS: Wherever you are, tell me. When you open your eyes, do you see a table?
LNM: Yes, it means that I am more attached to the table. In a dream it is not the same thing
VS: It is not a question of attachment darling…
LNM: But, it is not like when you are in a dream. I just know when you are in a dream. Sometimes you dream, and you just care for that thing and you are still dreaming and sleeping, because you are aware that this is a dream. This is not a dream I can tap this table it is not difficult. So is this life.
VS: When you are aware of the dream the dream goes! Then the dream starts again…
LNM: It could be that when you are aware it starts again and it is not permanent.
VS: You are jumping from one place to another place. When you see, do you see a table?
LNM: When I see with these eyes, I see a table. VS: You can only see with your eyes, you cannot see with your head.
LNM: One thing is to see the thing, and another thing is to see your mind.
VS: Okay, what is your next question?
LNM: Sorry, I don’t think reality is going to talk about the experience that makes you real; to say that this is an illusion is difficult to put in words.
VS: If you listen I’ll probably be able to help you.
LNM: Whom do you want to help?
VS: Ha Ha! Who has come here called Laura? Even that you don’t know!
LNM: Sorry?
VS: Even that you don’t know?
LNM: Who is going to be helped?
VS: Laura!
LNM: The real Laura, or ignorant Laura?
VS: You don’t know the Real Laura! For so long you have only known Laura. Get lost and then you will know the real Laura. Don’t be convinced that you don’t need help…
LNM: I didn’t say that! Who needs help?
VS: Exactly! You say, “Who needs help?” The moment you say “‘who needs help”, it has got a defensive mechanism. It has prevented it from knowing. It has grabbed you…
LNM: I think it has not grabbed anything. To get to anybody! That’s why I say who needs help. I don’t want to make it perfect.
VS: If you do not need help my darling, you will never be here. Existence won’t give you help, okay!
LNM: Well this I understand.
VS: Exactly.
LNM: I am here to learn perfectly.
VS: That is, to realize when you say, “Who needs help”- that is spiritual jargon. That is spiritual abstractism. That is ego’s cunning device to protect you from knowing yourself.
LNM: But I don’t need help maybe. The real me does not need help, and I am aware of that.
VS: Who is this, who is aware that reality doesn’t need any help? He is more real than reality.
LNM: I am not me. It is not for me anymore. The reality doesn’t change itself.
VS: My darling, I will tell you one thing. The moment you start saying such sentences, you will get more and more into bondage; because if you really know that the ‘real you’ doesn’t need help, you will never know; you will never utter it. You won’t even utter it. How would you know? You will not know at all that you don’t need help. You follow what I am saying? Exactly!
LNM: But I honestly don’t think Laura herself needs help. I maybe in trouble, I may suffer. But as far as I get along with the suffering…
VS: If you think that you suffer, and if you think you are in trouble, then you definitely need help.
LNM: Yes, but then I am aware of it, and then I realize, and I find my center, and I am not worried anymore. Because I am in touch and therefore I realize…
VS: The ego cannot find your center sweety. Either you are the center or you are not. Full stop.
LNM: That’s true. But I don’t care if I have a big ego. It is in reality this is; only the ego by itself is there. I sometimes identify with the ego and I know it is stupid it is okay for a while and sometimes not….
VS: Okay (sighing).
LNM: But I am not going to make perfect money that is why I do not give proper money.
VS: Okay (sighing).
LNM: Okay, well! Anyway. Probably in reality, maybe you are right that The only thing we are both here is to try to be honest and we to want learn more about reality and this is our journey.
VS: Learning means not to gather. That’s not learning. Learning means seeing life fresh, moment to moment. Go ahead.
LNM: But I have heard it said “You are not the doer.” When you say that… but that is not the point. You said yesterday to live in the NOW. That is why I have here a nasty question!
VS: Pardon…
LNM: Just live in the now. And I have here a nasty question
VS: Please go ahead. I love nasty questions.
LNM: I always know the answer, but I have something here to prove my point to ask the nasty question.
VS: If you know the answer, then don’t ask it. No matter what answer I give you, you will only turn it into your own answer. And if the answer doesn’t strengthen your answer, then my answer is not right…
LNM: Okay fair enough.
VS: Exactly, I always say only when you know the answer can you question, and this is a classical example…
LNM: Okay.
VS: You can only ask a question if you don’t know the answer. If you know the answer then again you ask the question, why do you do it?
LNM: All right Okay let me ask you a question before that, and I want to ask it for myself.
VS: My answer won’t be the same. I bet you that.
LNM: I know. Sir, is there a need for any technique to get in the NOW? I see that you have an ashram that is placed in the States where they have different activities, yoga, whatever. So my question is, in order to be in the ‘now’ and to live fresh, do we need… I mean it is not a question I want your opinion.
VS: So what is the question?
LNM: So my question is, in order to be in the ‘now’ and to live fresh, do we need a technique?
VS: It depends upon you. Now, you ask me the question!
LNM: I am asking you the question!
VS: Exactly, now, would you like to have a technique?
LNM: No, I don’t.
VS: Okay, then a technique is not needed to be in the now. That is the answer. Kalpna will come to me, and I say ‘Kalpna’ to be in the ‘now’ do you want a technique? And she says ‘yes’ I need a technique. So I would say, ‘here’s a technique’. The technique is necessary until she herself finds out that it is irrelevant. She has got to go through it. If she doesn’t go through it how will she know it is irrelevant? If I say its not necessary, she will say ‘it is necessary; why is it not necessary; I must do something; I need a technique’. It will knaw her. It will claw her. For them yes, what do you want to do? Want to sit? Sit! But then she comes back and tells me I did all this technique and nothing has happened, why did you give it to me? To them I will say ‘I never said something will happen’. I just asked you if you need a technique to be in the now. You said you need it, so I gave it to you. I never said anything will happen to you. Now you realize nothing has happened to you, so now come to this side. Do you need any technique? They say ‘no.’ Good for you, no technique is necessary.
LNM: Okay, right, let us see, I also liked very much when you talked about a state of eternal happiness. Is this eternal happiness, a state of being that comes when one is almost in awareness?
VS: A state of happiness comes to you when you are sure that you are woken up from this waking dream, which you have avoided very cleverly…
LNM: Next one! I am almost done.
VS: Go on! I am here. If I die, then you cannot go on.
LNM: Okay. The next question is about death. I was listening to you yesterday you mentioned a couple of times “death.”
VS: I will always mention DEATH. If you are with me, I’ll always keep mentioning death…
LNM: Yes.
VS: Because this whole waking sate is nothing but a phenomenon of death. You are not living you are dying. You can live if you know how to live. Otherwise it is a matter of a dissipating act. The moment you have taken birth, dissipating act has started. Disintegration is a process. Integration has happened in the womb. The moment you come out, disintegration starts. People celebrate birthdays. 25th birthday, 50th birthday! They don’t know they just celebrated 50 years of death and about 20 years more to live. They are not celebrating birthday. Birthday happened only when you came out of the mother’s womb. Such is life. Okay, having said that, yes, what do you want to say about it?
LNM: Well firstly, who dies?
VS: There you go again! There you go! I told you the mind dies when ego dies. Full stop!
LNM: Okay perfect. Second one.
VS: The problem is, in death when the ego dies the mind dies. I don’t mean that there is an end to it. There is no death in life at all. No way! If there is death, then there cannot be life. Exactly! By death, I mean, as the temporary absence of a particular mind and the particular ego. Exactly like when you are sleeping there is temporary absence of your mind and your ego and it comes back the next morning, in a bigger frame. Death of the mind and ego means a temporary absence of the mind and ego, which has come back in a smaller frame…
LNM: That is true.
VS: That is all. Okay?
LNM: Yes.
VS: For me, there is nothing called death in this world. It is not possible, because energy cannot be destroyed. Now you tell me “does illness lead to death?”
LNM: What do you mean?
VS: Illness my sweety, sickness.
LNM: Ah! Illness, body sickness.
VS: Yes, yes.
LNM: Well, there is a body, probably the mind, and a personality.
VS: Listen, listen, and listen.
LNM: When you die probably the body will come back in the next life
VS: Will somebody make me a board, which says listen, and keep it here! You are not having a dialogue here, but you are having a monologue…
LNM: But I have been trained for years to talk, I am completely talking sense or no sense.
VS: The more the ego indulges in talking in what you think you know, the more it is irrelevant.
LNM: That is true. Now I know there is no need to talk and I will be silent.
VS: Even if you say you are not talking, you are talking inside. Be very sure of that. You may say you are silent here, but it does not mean talking is not happening. People practice silence, but it is not silence at all. It is artificial silence. Inside the talking is going on. With this sentence the interview ends.
Mrs. Archna Tripathi and Mrs. Lalitha Balachandran Texas, USA, retrieved this interview from a poor recording.
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